Curse

Riot Narita · Jun 21, 2010, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Are bows rendered useless in PvE?

No, a flatbow is still useful for pulling :-P

WhiteAsIce · Jun 21, 2010, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by akhil

I used to love interrupting back when I started my ranger. Interrupting is fairly difficult due to decreased activation time and now even I do interrupt that one skill it just feels......meh the targets dead. Also why waste skill slots and attack skills when you can always just cast techno babble.

In PvE, you don't interrupt just to interrupt anymore. Now, it's all about interrupting for the secondary effect. Mesmers got a buff in that department, so skills like Cry of Frustration or Psychic Instability reward a successful interrupt with an auspicious secondary effect - in these cases, it's AoE damage & interrupt, or AoE knockdown.
Rangers don't have that many interrupts with a beneficial secondary effect. Distracting/Magebane Shot are great in PvP, but it's not that necessary in general PvE (sans a few hunting/farming builds). Conc Shot provides Dazed, but Technobabble is better. All other bow interrupts deal damage as a secondary effect, and only Savage Shot is used most because of low recharge and high damage. If bow interrupts could provide something better in PvE, I would start playing with a bow more often. Instead, I'm stuck with bow interrupts that are like Power Spike at low Domination levels.

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

This is going way off topic. The OP feels bows are "useless", can't put out good enough damage, and that interrupting/conditions in HM are "useless".
This isn't about what other professions can provide that a bow ranger can't, it's about the role of a bow, and DPS is simply not the only thing it can do well. That argument tells me the player hasn't played one long enough to learn a new "trick".

It more to do with what you can or cant bring to a team..and they provide average single target damage that can easily be matched with a load of extra utility and often aoe damage from various classes.

So its exactly the point of what rangers can or cant bring do with a bow compared to what others can, if someone else can match what the ranger does at its own game* and bring a lot more easily to the table.....ranger gets pushed down the pecking order.

Bows dps isnt high enough to warrent a full bar* dedicated to it, when you compare what you could have taken instead. So in that respect, they are a little underpowered ^

*talking turret bars, as barrage is so heavily loathed here

Tho if you can agro and ball, and the team is set that way its pretty epic damage outputs! tho maybe not super universal..( wouldn't bring a ranger given the option unless it was the right situation/team anyhow for sake of something more fitting/useful)

Xiaquin · Jun 21, 2010, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

(rangers) provide average single target damage

Hmm careful here. Define "average". When I tested my Dervish, I was not star struck; she didn't show up the bow. However, I did note that with adjacent foes, it would be a different story. Ritualist's spirits have a mind of their own, warriors and paragons need to build up adrenaline before they shine, and mesmers don't really qualify for DPS. That leaves necros and nukers who are better at AoE than single target, and obviously sins who need no explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

.....ranger gets pushed down the pecking order.

The pecking order is basically defined by elitists and others who think they are "pro". With rare exceptions, a ranger is perfectly fine to have in the party, and I currently have no trouble getting into HM PUGs for missions. Would other professions be given a higher priority? Absolutely, but that's again not the point. The argument is usefulness. Not rank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Bows dps isnt high enough to warrent a full bar* dedicated to it, when you compare what you could have taken instead. So in that respect, they are a little underpowered ^

It doesn't make sense to use a full bar for damage because that would be a waste. If you are only out to do damage, you don't need more than half a bar dedicated to it, leave the rest to option/res.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 21, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Allow me to rationalize full bar DPS.

When GW first came out, interruption was useful. Also, in situations where fights are extended, interrupts can be invaluable in preventing massive damage spikes from a singular monster.

However, the big "if" is if the "fights are extended." Interrupts are practically useless (in a lot of situations, but not all) now for several reasons:

1) Most fights are not extended.
2) Most extended fights are boss fights, and you can't interrupt them half the time anyway.
3) ER's and UA/HB, in my opinion, have made spike damage (on party members) irrelevant.

The highest DPS possible is preferable because if I zap a mob in 3 seconds, the following are pointless:
a) Interrupts; dead mobs are permanently interrupted.
b) Conditions; dead mobs have the ultimate condition, it's called death.

Condition spreading is trivial if I can drop a mob in 3-5 seconds. Assuming 10 pips of degen, and mob life of ~5 seconds, then max degen will do 100 damage, which is an extra 20 DPS, and that is assuming a lot. The problem with this is that in order to apply burning and poison/bleeding, you have to dedicate several other skill slots for 20 DPS. The net effect of using conditions is an overall lower DPS. Let's not forget that a lot of high end mobs don't have flesh. Armor have you down? Have your utility casters go monk secondary and keep Judge's Insight on the physicals.

In summation, the point I am trying to make here is that absurdly high physical DPS combined with absurd heals/defense (ERs, HB/UA) trivializes other game mechanics. I will use my bow to amp up the DPS, and I will let the monks do their job, the necros theirs, the rits theirs, and so forth.

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Hmm careful here. Define "average". When I tested my Dervish, I was not star struck; she didn't show up the bow. However, I did note that with adjacent foes, it would be a different story. Ritualist's spirits have a mind of their own, warriors and paragons need to build up adrenaline before they shine, and mesmers don't really qualify for DPS. That leaves necros and nukers who are better at AoE than single target, and obviously sins who need no explanation.

I currently have no trouble getting into HM PUGs for missions. Would other professions be given a higher priority? Absolutely, but that's again not the point. The argument is usefulness. Not rank.

It doesn't make sense to use a full bar for damage because that would be a waste. If you are only out to do damage, you don't need more than half a bar dedicated to it, leave the rest to option/res.

When a sin an do 200~ dps with aoe and party support and a solid group kd'ing ability with aoe gdw knockdowns is compared to a turret rangers single target damage, its pretty average

Pugs, have they ever been a good indicator of anything remotely un-bad?

nope.

Almost anything is more use than a ranger...regardless of rank. sadly..

Tell that to the rangers who all run full offense turret bars...yano the 150~dps ones...that were compared to a spirit ranger...without the whole bar, the dps drops right off making them even less useful.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 21, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

When a sin an do 200~ dps with aoe and party support and a solid group kd'ing ability with aoe gdw knockdowns is compared to a turret rangers single target damage, its pretty average

Pugs, have they ever been a good indicator of anything remotely un-bad?

nope.

Almost anything is more use than a ranger...regardless of rank. sadly..

Tell that to the rangers who all run full offense turret bars...yano the 150~dps ones...that were compared to a spirit ranger...without the whole bar, the dps drops right off making them even less useful.

Good example of Sin DPS

-The only way, as evidenced by those videos, for a sin to get up to ~200 dps is for the sin to have his heroes casting SoH and OoP to increase his/her DPS. Show me a video or pic where a sin can get to 200 dps without the extra help. And also, if you notice, those bars were fully dedicated to damage, as are most phys bars when they properly realize their role: damage.

-Plus, as I have already explained, running from monster to monster takes time and destroys the Sin's DPS. Ranger's don't have that problem.

-AoE from MS/DB is not that powerful. Don't get me wrong, it is a nice for a lot of place, but it is overrated We are talking ~80 dmg every 2 seconds, a whole 40ish DPS. Natural HM regen for places like UW are going to reduce that AoE DPS down to 26. I could just as well go Rit secondary and spam my turret build with splinter weapon. At least that will go off every second, yielding 40 DPS AoE, which is almost as good as the MS/DB (but not as good, I admit).

-I posted the best Sin video I could find. Most of the build videos don't get anywhere near that high, about 100-150 DPS in most cases (probably because they don't have an army casting damage buffs on them). I would like to see a vid, or a pic, showing that a sin, by his or herself, can maintain 200 DPS for at least 10 seconds.

-I still have yet to see a sin spike 450 damage (legitimately) in 1 second. As a matter of fact, I will go home today after I get off work and run a 4 second clip just so I can manipulate the MoD into giving me over 200 DPS.

I am a man of empirical evidence.

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

-Plus, as I have already explained, running from monster to monster takes time and destroys the Sin's DPS. Ranger's don't have that problem.

You run in , argo form's on you.. you dont need to run far unless your bad.

-AoE from MS/DB is not that powerful. Don't get me wrong, it is a nice for a lot of place, but it is overrated We are talking ~80 dmg every 2 seconds, a whole 40ish DPS. Natural HM regen for places like UW are going to reduce that AoE DPS down to 26. I could just as well go Rit secondary and spam my turret build with splinter weapon. At least that will go off every second, yielding 40 DPS AoE, which is almost as good as the MS/DB (but not as good, I admit).

40 aoe dps from blossom x how ever many foes are around you...3+ wouldnt be difficult and thats an extra 120dps, 5 isnt unheard of by any stretch so thats +200dps.. or just crit scythe.

That really makes the 150 single target dps seem pretty damn poor.. and no one stop a ranger having team buffs up... there is just no way for a turret ranger to deliver the kind of buffed up damage packets that a melee can (including a large % of kd's from gdw) ... tho ill not argue it anymore as i dont really care

Just so many ppl who havent quite sussed out just how broken the other stuff is compared, and why rangers ARE at the bottom of the pile..

Fay Vert · Jun 21, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Rangers were perfectly balanced for Prophesies.

Unfortunately since then we had two more chapters, an expansion and numerous updates that have boosted the power in the game without doing anything in particular for bow rangers. Add to that a handful of anti-spike nerfs and bows have just slipped to dull mediocre irrelevence. In relative terms the ranger is one of the most versatile and yet useless professions going. The modern game is all about high damage and AoE so professions that don't do that need a buff, hence the big PvE buff to mesmers that was long overdue.

If bows are to be useful then there needs to be a buff to either damage or utility in them. What was once great utility is now pointless in PvE due to the power creep. Conditions are worthless, interrupts are almost worthless (seriously, torment claws? ffs if that doesn't demonstrate how bad things have got I don't know what does).

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

perfectly put Fay, and i presume your rock barrage if your tankyspanking and the other 99% of the time melee ranger?

Amy Awien · Jun 21, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Pugs, have they ever been a good indicator of anything remotely un-bad?

What matters:

1) H&H : It's your game so ...
2) Guild and friend teams : You're all good and know what to do, so every class is uselfull (cuz it's the player that counts)
3) Specialized Teams (SC) : every spot in the party is predefined
4) Pugs : this is where you get into based on perception of your class

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What matters:

1) H&H : It's your game so ...agreed, no one gives a crap
2) Guild and friend teams : You're all good and know what to do, so every class is uselfull (cuz it's the player that counts) a good player with a bad class/setup wont perform as well as a good player with a good class/setup, so you can still see a class that is lacking
3) Specialized Teams (SC) : every spot in the party is predefined agreed
4) Pugs : this is where you get into based on perception of your class more the perception of how well others can play in general

When you play all the classes, you get a feel for what they can and cant do, and how they measure up to each other. Nothing to do with if a pug wants to let you in or how pug players can handle a certain class. Then ofc you have the math to back it up the theory. Rangers have been weighed, measured and found wanting.

Xiaquin · Jun 22, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

When a sin an do 200~ dps with aoe and party support and a solid group kd'ing ability with aoe gdw knockdowns is compared to a turret rangers single target damage, its pretty average

1) Both professions can AoE attack.
2) What party support?
3) Anyone can bring PvE skills.
4) Sins give up armor and tend to die/occupy the healer's attention.

If the bow had better DPS than daggers, something would be very wrong with the game. Not a fair comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Pugs, have they ever been a good indicator of anything remotely un-bad?

nope.

Huh? I'm usually in very efficient pugs. Maybe you need to try them again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Almost anything is more use than a ranger...regardless of rank. sadly..

That's entirely subjective, and again, off-topic. Use, in the OP, was relative to capability, not other professions. If you give the best case scenario to a profession, you can make all sorts of wild statements.

I'll leave it at that. Meanwhile, I'll stay on my primary bow ranger, and happily help my party in all the ways I've been capable of for years.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 22, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

That really makes the 150 single target dps seem pretty damn poor.. and no one stop a ranger having team buffs up... there is just no way for a turret ranger to deliver the kind of buffed up damage packets that a melee can (including a large % of kd's from gdw) ... tho ill not argue it anymore as i dont really care

Just so many ppl who havent quite sussed out just how broken the other stuff is compared, and why rangers ARE at the bottom of the pile..

Now you are changing the subject. If you want to talk AoE damage, Barrage + BUH + Splinter Weapon. One barrage alone will do about 200 damage per monster. Its 50 damage per proc, x3 for adjacent, + the amount from the actual bow attack. If you have a group of 5 perfectly arranged monsters, then we are talking a 1k dps spike... at least.

But since HM isn't like the MoD, you have to bring Asuran scan and your turret bar.

Celestina · Jun 22, 2010, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Also, while it may or may not matter, one blind will completely wreck a assassin in every possible way. While that may be true with rangers as well, I've found melee's are almost promised to be hit with blind constantly in areas where monsters inflict blind often and easily. The bow ranger is less likely to be the target, as they rarely get more attention then a melee character in my experiance.

Just thought I'd throw that in there, just as something to consider when comparing sins to rangers.

Xiaquin · Jun 22, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

An excellent point to make, Celestina. Let's also include snares. Cripple and slow hexes will absolutely devastate any melee's ability. Meanwhile, with a bow, you might not even notice, and certainly aren't too worried about it if you are positioned as you should be.

Amy Awien · Jun 22, 2010, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

a good player with a bad class/setup wont perform as well as a good player with a good class/setup, so you can still see a class that is lacking

Incorrect, healing plays very different from tanking, or interrupting. A player can perform better with a mesmer or ranger then with a warrior or sin, making it more usefull for them and the team to let them play what they are good at.

Quote:

more the perception of how well others can play in general

It's possible that class isn't an issue for PuG, but rather wanting to play in one or not.

Quote:

Rangers have been weighed, measured and found wanting

Time for a buff then, I will not argue against that.

If high end PvE has become a DPS game were every other utility has become secondary then it is time to bring all profession on an equal DPS level

system.fan · Jun 22, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Do things always have to be usefull?
It's a game... It's about having fun and not about getting more and more ectos while running around with an godmode assassin while clicking 1,2,3 and 1,2,3 and 1,2,3 all the time lol

If someone likes playing a real ranger with a bow and fighting enemys from last row....
why the heck should he play anything else than?

And to answer the question:
No, Bow's are usefull.... At least they aren't less usefull then in the earlier days.
And earlier nobody was complaining about "useless" rangers...

greetz

Notorious Bob · Jun 22, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Anet have consistently nerfed Ranger skills and "sub-classes" while supporting and buffing other professions and skill lines.

Cookie-cutter will always trump skill in a game environment where things are focussed on short term "fix".

Who knows how good/bad the Ranger class will be in GW2

Mintha Syl · Jun 22, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by system.fan

Do things always have to be usefull?
It's a game... It's about having fun and not about getting more and more ectos while running around with an godmode assassin while clicking 1,2,3 and 1,2,3 and 1,2,3 all the time lol

If someone likes playing a real ranger with a bow and fighting enemys from last row....
why the heck should he play anything else than?

That's exactly what I think. That's why I always prefer funny builds/classes (and that's why a bm ranger is my main

) rather than godly ones. But I can do it beacuse I h/h or play with close friends and don't have the pretence to manage to do everything in the game.

But the problems sometimes come if you want to find a group or do very difficult areas (yeah I know people says gw is all very easy, but not everyone is good), then you have to be efficient or you'll just groan and eat dust instead of having fun. Now, if to the funny things some more effictivness was added it wouldn't be that bad IMHO.